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> Education in the planetarium and the observatory
mrgare5050
post Jul 21 2008, 06:45 AM
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Here is Astronomy Magazines TOP TEN ASTRONOMICAL DISCOVERIES of the last 35 years. I know most of us here are all about history and classcial stuff, but I always have this nagging feeling myself that I am lagging behind in whats gone on in the past decades! So as a reference if you dont pick up the magazine, here they are

10. It was discovered that the Milky Way is in fact a barred spiral, the bar is 27 million light years long and is at a 45 degree angle to a line from our sun to the center, we are NOT a typical spiral galaxy! How did they do it? Infrared with the Spitzer.

9. Discovery of the Great Attractor, the whole Virgo Supercluster of galaxy (of which our local group is a small outlying part) is steaming towards a spot in the constellation Norma, which apparently marks the location of a massive supercluster of galaxies.

8. Supernova 1987A in the Large Magellanic cloud was the closest since the telescope was invented, and we actually captured a few dozen neutrinos from it - neutrinos carry away far more energy than light - this explosion is now a beautiful 'diamond ring' of glowing gas. They still dont know the exact mechanics though

7. The Milky Way apparently gobbles up smaller galaxies, and some globular clusters may actually be old nuclei of gobbled up dwarves - the most notable new discovery of a gobbled galaxy is a dwarf in Saggitarius - the Milky Way is hungry!

6. They finally linked gamma ray bursts to distant celestial objects after a satellite detected a massic one in 97 ... these last milliseconds to a few minutes at best ... they DONT line up with the Milky Way, they come from WAYYY out there, making them the brightest objects.. causes vary, the short ones from neutron stars, the largest from supernova

5. They found black holes (term coined by Wheeler in 67) .. first from xray bursts of visible/invisible star binary systems .. the invisible component was too massive for a star .. then Hubble found a bunch of these systems that were revolving too fast .. the blue shift/red shifts at the core of M84 for example are WAYYY too whacked out

4. the big bang appeared too perfect - no fluctuations in the background hiss .. flat geometry .. somehow Guth at MIT developed a model that allowed a tiny period after the big bang where all matter was in contact, then the same probe that had dated the big bang at 13.7 million years ago confirmed 'inflation'... I have no idea what they are talking about on this one!

3. the voyagers, this is probably the most well known .. they revolutionized the view of our solar system and they are still alive 8 billion miles out

2. Planets! and not fitting the models of our solar system - jupiter like planets much closer to the star ... 51 Pegasi was the first found around a sunlike star, but it orbited it in 5 days .. 300 are now known.. but then search techniques still favor gas giants - they have found a few smaller than neptune so far but they are still massive.. no earth sizers

1. Dark Energy ... apparently it was detected. this is also difficult. type Ia supernovas were observed by the Hubble.. they all arise from identical conditions, red giant/white dwarf binaries and their peak luminosities match ... allowing you to determine the distance... but the furtherest from us are fainger than their distances imply... some force has to be accelerating the universe's expansion for this to make sense... they now put it at 72 percent of the universes contents... this is dark ENERGY .. dark MATTER is estimated at 23 percent... leaving 5 percent for the stuff WE see ... this means eventually we wont be able to see ANYTHING but our own galaxy ....


i have a headache! gare
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Ron Walker
post Jul 21 2008, 10:38 AM
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Wow, that IS deep stuff. (IMG:http://www.observatorycentral.com/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I think I'll stick to the simple stuff like constilation folklore and what's up in the sky this month. The heavy duty stuff can be saved for the classroom.
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Owen Phairis
post Jul 21 2008, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 21 2008, 05:45 AM) *
Here is Astronomy Magazines TOP TEN ASTRONOMICAL DISCOVERIES of the last 35 years. I know most of us here are all about history and classcial stuff, but I always have this nagging feeling myself that I am lagging behind in whats gone on in the past decades! So as a reference if you dont pick up the magazine, here they are

10. It was discovered that the Milky Way is in fact a barred spiral, the bar is 27 million light years long and is at a 45 degree angle to a line from our sun to the center, we are NOT a typical spiral galaxy! How did they do it? Infrared with the Spitzer.

9. Discovery of the Great Attractor, the whole Virgo Supercluster of galaxy (of which our local group is a small outlying part) is steaming towards a spot in the constellation Norma, which apparently marks the location of a massive supercluster of galaxies.

8. Supernova 1987A in the Large Magellanic cloud was the closest since the telescope was invented, and we actually captured a few dozen neutrinos from it - neutrinos carry away far more energy than light - this explosion is now a beautiful 'diamond ring' of glowing gas. They still dont know the exact mechanics though

7. The Milky Way apparently gobbles up smaller galaxies, and some globular clusters may actually be old nuclei of gobbled up dwarves - the most notable new discovery of a gobbled galaxy is a dwarf in Saggitarius - the Milky Way is hungry!

6. They finally linked gamma ray bursts to distant celestial objects after a satellite detected a massic one in 97 ... these last milliseconds to a few minutes at best ... they DONT line up with the Milky Way, they come from WAYYY out there, making them the brightest objects.. causes vary, the short ones from neutron stars, the largest from supernova

5. They found black holes (term coined by Wheeler in 67) .. first from xray bursts of visible/invisible star binary systems .. the invisible component was too massive for a star .. then Hubble found a bunch of these systems that were revolving too fast .. the blue shift/red shifts at the core of M84 for example are WAYYY too whacked out

4. the big bang appeared too perfect - no fluctuations in the background hiss .. flat geometry .. somehow Guth at MIT developed a model that allowed a tiny period after the big bang where all matter was in contact, then the same probe that had dated the big bang at 13.7 million years ago confirmed 'inflation'... I have no idea what they are talking about on this one!

3. the voyagers, this is probably the most well known .. they revolutionized the view of our solar system and they are still alive 8 billion miles out

2. Planets! and not fitting the models of our solar system - jupiter like planets much closer to the star ... 51 Pegasi was the first found around a sunlike star, but it orbited it in 5 days .. 300 are now known.. but then search techniques still favor gas giants - they have found a few smaller than neptune so far but they are still massive.. no earth sizers

1. Dark Energy ... apparently it was detected. this is also difficult. type Ia supernovas were observed by the Hubble.. they all arise from identical conditions, red giant/white dwarf binaries and their peak luminosities match ... allowing you to determine the distance... but the furtherest from us are fainger than their distances imply... some force has to be accelerating the universe's expansion for this to make sense... they now put it at 72 percent of the universes contents... this is dark ENERGY .. dark MATTER is estimated at 23 percent... leaving 5 percent for the stuff WE see ... this means eventually we wont be able to see ANYTHING but our own galaxy ....


i have a headache! gare


Interesting, I would have thought that finding out that the Universe is still expanding and at an ever-increasing rate would have made it to the list..... Hummm............

Owen
Planetarium Projector Museum
www.pictorialism.com
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mrgare5050
post Jul 22 2008, 05:33 AM
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I think the Dark Force stuff is examining aspects of the expansion of the universe, but its an interesting reversal of Oblers Paradox, which I dimly remember saying that as light sources are everywhere in the sky, why isnt the sky a blinding sheet of light. Now they are saying, the sky will go dark completely as things recede.

Im with you Owen and Ron on being more into legends and constellations, the human element, of it all. I do like to keep a summary of current things at hand in case some kids ask, and this was a good summary. Plus it gives ideas for projectors .. galaxy groups etc .. Personally I dont know a gamma ray from a neutrino (didnt I drive a neutrino back in 79? wait that was a Torino) . There is another summary I want to do, thats SCOPES .. I lost track after the 200 inch... gare sagan
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mrgare5050
post Jul 22 2008, 05:35 AM
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OMG I'm the only one here... that means I get to post OC Planetariums

5000th post!

I'll do it here in education, to remind us that as much as we look back, we must (sigh) also look forward. gare
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Owen Phairis
post Jul 23 2008, 09:50 PM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 22 2008, 04:33 AM) *
I think the Dark Force stuff is examining aspects of the expansion of the universe, but its an interesting reversal of Oblers Paradox, which I dimly remember saying that as light sources are everywhere in the sky, why isnt the sky a blinding sheet of light. Now they are saying, the sky will go dark completely as things recede.

Im with you Owen and Ron on being more into legends and constellations, the human element, of it all. I do like to keep a summary of current things at hand in case some kids ask, and this was a good summary. Plus it gives ideas for projectors .. galaxy groups etc .. Personally I dont know a gamma ray from a neutrino (didnt I drive a neutrino back in 79? wait that was a Torino) . There is another summary I want to do, thats SCOPES .. I lost track after the 200 inch... gare sagan



Hmm... I do not remember saying I was more into the legends and constellations? Actually, I'm much more into gamma rays, neutrinos and string theory than I am into the old make believe stories. They may indeed make for a more interesting and entertaining planetarium show, but, in my opinion, they are of very limited educational value.......

Owen
Planetarium Projector Museum
www.pictorialism.com
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mrgare5050
post Jul 24 2008, 04:51 AM
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Oh sorry Owen. Indeed it points out the rich palette from which a program can be painted I think. From storytelling to leading edge particle physics to cosmological theory to practical astronomy to navigational astronomy to the space program to .. it never ends! gare
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mrgare5050
post Jul 24 2008, 06:57 AM
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another quick reference from Astronomy mag is the march of the scopes - if you are like me, you were/are all about lick, wilson, palomar .. but if some kid asked me today, whats the biggest scope?? i would go ummmmm

heres a guide

WORLDS BIGGEST

Hubble 2.4M 1990 (1 mirror)
Keck 10M (made up of over 30 smaller mirrors) 1992
Gemini North 8.1m 1999 (1 mirror)

PLANNED

Pan-STARRS - 4 separate 3.6m scopes acting together 2012
James Webb Space Telescope (replaces Hubble) 6.5M about 16 separate mirrors 2013
Large Synoptic Survey Telescope 8.4M 2014
Giant Magellan Telescope 24.5M 8.4m mirrors 2016
Thirty Meter Telescope - 492 small mirrors 2016

The coming megascopes remind me of our own beloved planetarium instruments - they begin to take on fantastic shape and hue, just like our stuff! gare




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mrgare5050
post Feb 12 2009, 03:52 PM
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Im plugging in here useful tidbits as i run across them - 8 months since the last tidbit .. heres something interesting to point out in a planetarium from this months Astronomy mag pg 25

Pioneer 10 launched March 72 and was thrown out of the solar system by Jupiter in Dec 72. It is currently 96 au from the sun, going 2.5 au per year. It is headed towards Aldebaran, which it should reach in about 2 million years

Pioneer 11 launched April 73, Jupiter bounced it toward Saturn in Dec 74, and Saturn threw it out of the solar system in Sept 79. It is current 75 au from the sun, going 2.4 au per year. It is headed into Aquila (lambda) in about 4 million years.

Both probes, while they could still be heard however, were short of where they should have been - 36K miles for 10 and 3.7K miles for 11 .. something was slowing them down at the same rate over the same period of time


this anomoly cannot be tested with the voyagers, as they jet gas periodically to stabililze.

good facts to amaze! g
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mrgare5050
post Jul 8 2009, 05:50 AM
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There are red dwarfs and red giants, as there are white dwarfs and blue/white giants. "yellow" stars are considered right in the middle, masswise.

Most stars are classified according to their position on the main sequence of the H-R (Hertzprung-Russell) Diagram.
http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/mmss/courses....2/HR.htm14.gif
Blue giants are massive, main sequence stars, that are undergoing hydrogen fusion at a faster rate than any other main sequence star. For this reason, they are relatively short lived/high temperature stars, hence the blue/white color.
Likewise, yellow stars are also main sequence stars that are hydrogen fusing stars.
A red giant star is not a main sequence star. It is a star that is in the twilight of its years, that is, it is a star that is no longer fusing hydrogen in its core. So, gravitational contraction causes the temperature in its helium core to rise to at least 100 million Kelvin (This is where we get carbon, by the way). There is still hydrogen fusing in a shell around the core which causes the star to expand. This expansion cools the star, therefore, the surface temperature goes down, and we perceive this decrease in temperature as a red color. Red giants have the same mass as a main sequence star, but occupy a much larger volume, so they are less dense as well.
A white dwarf is the core of a star of mass similar to our sun after it has thrown off its hydrogen envelope into space (Post red giant phase). This creates what is called a planetary nebula. The core of the star at this point is mostly carbon, and it has a high density. As long as the core is not part of a binary system, it will no longer undergo fusion and will cool to a red/brown dwarf. Eventually, the core will cool enough to no longer emit EM radiation at visible wavelengths, becoming what is called a "dead black dwarf"

When our Sun's core runs out of hydrogen in the core for fusion in about 4.5 billion years, it will expand to a red giant. Our Earth's orbit will, at that point, be inside the sun.

The apparent scale of this change will be roughly equivalent to a marble to a large beach ball.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6307/78...00/Planets4.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6307/78...00/Planets5.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im FINALLY constructing an exhibit depicting star colors (and therefore types) - I have simmered this for years, thinking spray painted tennis balls and oranges etc etc, but have finally hit upon the idea of not only an exhibit in my almost done Visitors Center, but a homewritten show title (I still dont have one) called LAMPS . it will have a variety of lamps with different colored bulbs burning . I want to depict prototypical stars like

red: antares
yellow: sun, cappella
blue/white: rigel, vega
orange: ??
infrared ?? (black light bulb)
green: theres a green star somewhere, ???

To me its all about stars stars stars, we only know the nebula, galaxies .. planets.. asteroids ... comets ... we only know they exist BECAUSE of stars! Stars are it. Can anyone add to this? Chemed provided he excellent summary above - gare


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Owen Phairis
post Jul 8 2009, 08:55 AM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 8 2009, 04:50 AM) *
There are red dwarfs and red giants, as there are white dwarfs and blue/white giants. "yellow" stars are considered right in the middle, masswise.

Most stars are classified according to their position on the main sequence of the H-R (Hertzprung-Russell) Diagram.
http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/mmss/courses....2/HR.htm14.gif
Blue giants are massive, main sequence stars, that are undergoing hydrogen fusion at a faster rate than any other main sequence star. For this reason, they are relatively short lived/high temperature stars, hence the blue/white color.
Likewise, yellow stars are also main sequence stars that are hydrogen fusing stars.
A red giant star is not a main sequence star. It is a star that is in the twilight of its years, that is, it is a star that is no longer fusing hydrogen in its core. So, gravitational contraction causes the temperature in its helium core to rise to at least 100 million Kelvin (This is where we get carbon, by the way). There is still hydrogen fusing in a shell around the core which causes the star to expand. This expansion cools the star, therefore, the surface temperature goes down, and we perceive this decrease in temperature as a red color. Red giants have the same mass as a main sequence star, but occupy a much larger volume, so they are less dense as well.
A white dwarf is the core of a star of mass similar to our sun after it has thrown off its hydrogen envelope into space (Post red giant phase). This creates what is called a planetary nebula. The core of the star at this point is mostly carbon, and it has a high density. As long as the core is not part of a binary system, it will no longer undergo fusion and will cool to a red/brown dwarf. Eventually, the core will cool enough to no longer emit EM radiation at visible wavelengths, becoming what is called a "dead black dwarf"

When our Sun's core runs out of hydrogen in the core for fusion in about 4.5 billion years, it will expand to a red giant. Our Earth's orbit will, at that point, be inside the sun.

The apparent scale of this change will be roughly equivalent to a marble to a large beach ball.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6307/78...00/Planets4.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6307/78...00/Planets5.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im FINALLY constructing an exhibit depicting star colors (and therefore types) - I have simmered this for years, thinking spray painted tennis balls and oranges etc etc, but have finally hit upon the idea of not only an exhibit in my almost done Visitors Center, but a homewritten show title (I still dont have one) called LAMPS . it will have a variety of lamps with different colored bulbs burning . I want to depict prototypical stars like

red: antares
yellow: sun, cappella
blue/white: rigel, vega
orange: ??
infrared ?? (black light bulb)
green: theres a green star somewhere, ???

To me its all about stars stars stars, we only know the nebula, galaxies .. planets.. asteroids ... comets ... we only know they exist BECAUSE of stars! Stars are it. Can anyone add to this? Chemed provided he excellent summary above - gare


Sir Gare,

What a GREAT idea!

Perhaps you could use one of those 100 million watt light bulbs for a super-nova? Or, better yet, how about a xenon strobe lamp for the super-nova? Of course, you would only want them to play with the exhibit after the planetarium show was over because of the damage to their eyes upon seeing the nova.....maybe you should consider skipping my ideas on the nova experience....

Owen -
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Ron Walker
post Jul 8 2009, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 8 2009, 04:50 AM) *
There are red dwarfs and red giants, as there are white dwarfs and blue/white giants. "yellow" stars are considered right in the middle, masswise.

Most stars are classified according to their position on the main sequence of the H-R (Hertzprung-Russell) Diagram.
http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/mmss/courses....2/HR.htm14.gif
Blue giants are massive, main sequence stars, that are undergoing hydrogen fusion at a faster rate than any other main sequence star. For this reason, they are relatively short lived/high temperature stars, hence the blue/white color.
Likewise, yellow stars are also main sequence stars that are hydrogen fusing stars.
A red giant star is not a main sequence star. It is a star that is in the twilight of its years, that is, it is a star that is no longer fusing hydrogen in its core. So, gravitational contraction causes the temperature in its helium core to rise to at least 100 million Kelvin (This is where we get carbon, by the way). There is still hydrogen fusing in a shell around the core which causes the star to expand. This expansion cools the star, therefore, the surface temperature goes down, and we perceive this decrease in temperature as a red color. Red giants have the same mass as a main sequence star, but occupy a much larger volume, so they are less dense as well.
A white dwarf is the core of a star of mass similar to our sun after it has thrown off its hydrogen envelope into space (Post red giant phase). This creates what is called a planetary nebula. The core of the star at this point is mostly carbon, and it has a high density. As long as the core is not part of a binary system, it will no longer undergo fusion and will cool to a red/brown dwarf. Eventually, the core will cool enough to no longer emit EM radiation at visible wavelengths, becoming what is called a "dead black dwarf"

When our Sun's core runs out of hydrogen in the core for fusion in about 4.5 billion years, it will expand to a red giant. Our Earth's orbit will, at that point, be inside the sun.

The apparent scale of this change will be roughly equivalent to a marble to a large beach ball.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6307/78...00/Planets4.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6307/78...00/Planets5.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im FINALLY constructing an exhibit depicting star colors (and therefore types) - I have simmered this for years, thinking spray painted tennis balls and oranges etc etc, but have finally hit upon the idea of not only an exhibit in my almost done Visitors Center, but a homewritten show title (I still dont have one) called LAMPS . it will have a variety of lamps with different colored bulbs burning . I want to depict prototypical stars like

red: antares
yellow: sun, cappella
blue/white: rigel, vega
orange: ??
infrared ?? (black light bulb)
green: theres a green star somewhere, ???

To me its all about stars stars stars, we only know the nebula, galaxies .. planets.. asteroids ... comets ... we only know they exist BECAUSE of stars! Stars are it. Can anyone add to this? Chemed provided he excellent summary above - gare


I love those kind of exhibits. Do you remember the "Electric Theater" at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago? When you entered and turned right and went through the time, telephone, sound exhibits all the way to the end and then down into the basement. There was a huge electromagnetic spectrum above the stage that they lit up as they talked about the different wavelengths. Popping an ear of corn and lighting a fluorescent lamp without wires were highlights but I also remember them lighting the smallest (a grain of wheat bulb) and the largest (a 10KW bulb) bulb. These are the things that stick with people long after the show is over.

I can see a black light painting of a galaxy and then a grain of wheat bulb hidden within to be a super-nova.

One of the great things with the Adler were the exhibits that surrounded the star theater. They kept everything dark to dark adapt ones eyes for the star show. Your lucky to have the extra room to set some of these things up outside the dome. I wish I could afford the room.
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mrgare5050
post Jul 9 2009, 01:49 AM
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Gare
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Attached File  2009_07090006.JPG ( 50.21k ) Number of downloads: 0


We speak of one bulb to depict heavens myriad stars, but we can also use one bulb per star and therefore simulate the color, the variety, the singular magnificience to accompany our starry sky multitude effect. Owen .. you present the ultimate challenge, how to see natures greatest beacons the supernovae. This is a subject that intrigues beyond this exhibit, blinding to be sure!

Ron, memories flood in of that museum in Chicago. The electric theater I had forgotten, was it down past the picture phones, the whisper chamber etc? I dimly remember a 'gaslight' street from the 20s. Autorama .. a nuclear reactor you walked inside ..

g
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Ron Walker
post Jul 9 2009, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 9 2009, 12:49 AM) *
Attached File  2009_07090006.JPG ( 50.21k ) Number of downloads: 0


We speak of one bulb to depict heavens myriad stars, but we can also use one bulb per star and therefore simulate the color, the variety, the singular magnificience to accompany our starry sky multitude effect. Owen .. you present the ultimate challenge, how to see natures greatest beacons the supernovae. This is a subject that intrigues beyond this exhibit, blinding to be sure!

Ron, memories flood in of that museum in Chicago. The electric theater I had forgotten, was it down past the picture phones, the whisper chamber etc? I dimly remember a 'gaslight' street from the 20s. Autorama .. a nuclear reactor you walked inside ..

g


Yes, past the whisper chamber.

I had forgotten the gaslight street and the reactor but I think they were down a different hall. Remember the walk through heart, the steel mill, the coal mine. Wow, what a great museum.
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Owen Phairis
post Jul 9 2009, 08:54 AM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 9 2009, 12:49 AM) *
Attached File  2009_07090006.JPG ( 50.21k ) Number of downloads: 0


We speak of one bulb to depict heavens myriad stars, but we can also use one bulb per star and therefore simulate the color, the variety, the singular magnificience to accompany our starry sky multitude effect. Owen .. you present the ultimate challenge, how to see natures greatest beacons the supernovae. This is a subject that intrigues beyond this exhibit, blinding to be sure!

Ron, memories flood in of that museum in Chicago. The electric theater I had forgotten, was it down past the picture phones, the whisper chamber etc? I dimly remember a 'gaslight' street from the 20s. Autorama .. a nuclear reactor you walked inside ..

g



Sir Gare,

It is always wonderful to see one of your ideas come to life. This group, perhaps more than most other groups, often sees ones words turn into projects and eventually become a reality. I think your dedication and creativity needs to be not only respected but commended....carry on.

Attached File  dream.gif ( 9.13k ) Number of downloads: 0


Owen -
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mrgare5050
post Jul 10 2009, 04:15 AM
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Ron, the focault pendulum in the stairwell, those airplanes hanging from the ceiling.. I always got a radiometer and a gyroscope in the gift shop

Owen, we were in Paducah yesterday at Hobby Lobby and Ive added three letters to my own DREAM sign, check it out!

Attached File  2009_07090007.JPG ( 64.89k ) Number of downloads: 0


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Owen Phairis
post Jul 10 2009, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 10 2009, 03:15 AM) *
Ron, the focault pendulum in the stairwell, those airplanes hanging from the ceiling.. I always got a radiometer and a gyroscope in the gift shop

Owen, we were in Paducah yesterday at Hobby Lobby and Ive added three letters to my own DREAM sign, check it out!

Attached File  2009_07090007.JPG ( 64.89k ) Number of downloads: 0


I LOVE it!!

Like Ken, I too, want to come visit your barn of BIG DREAMS.....

Owen -
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Ron Walker
post Jul 10 2009, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Jul 10 2009, 03:15 AM) *
Ron, the focault pendulum in the stairwell, those airplanes hanging from the ceiling.. I always got a radiometer and a gyroscope in the gift shop

Owen, we were in Paducah yesterday at Hobby Lobby and Ive added three letters to my own DREAM sign, check it out!

Attached File  2009_07090007.JPG ( 64.89k ) Number of downloads: 0


The Golden Gate Bridge model and the Bolder Dam model that filled with water.
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mrgare5050
post Jul 10 2009, 06:21 PM
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From: gallatin tenn
Member No.: 61



no visits yet, i need two more years!

ron check this out

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008/oc...rains-1021oct21
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moonmagic
post Jul 10 2009, 08:03 PM
Post #40


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gare-If my visitiors have to wait until I get things cleaned up....well, they could never visit. I don't want to see all the toys back in the box, I want them ALL OUT to play with. Wishing I had a barn,mm
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