[Ron Walker]

As most of you know, it is almost impossible to get the real scoop on exactly what the letters and numbers mean when it comes to planetarium projectors. They appear to change every time a new distributor comes along with a new set of numbers and letters for the exact same projector. After a while one just gives up and just enjoys the projectors.

The nice thing about Spitz is that they have been their own distributor and there is a fair amount of information out there. It is still a bit a problem when you have the A-3 and A-3-P come out about the same time as the arc lamp and the "prime-sky" and one really doesn't understand what the "P" means. That has been put to bed (as far as I can tell) as follows.

A-3 A round star ball with an incandescent lens but with no movement to the planets. They must be set by hand as in the A-2.

A-3-P An A-3 projector with motor driven planet projectors. The "P" stands for planets.

A-3-P prime sky An A-3-P projector with an arc lamp.

I have been guilty of perpetuating inaccurate information as my understanding of the above was originally inaccurate. Thus when questions of the names of GOTO projectors came up, and not having any real concrete information, pretty much went with the flow. Most of the information is straightforward but there has always been a question as to what the largest projectors are called. GOTO had a lot of projectors for a while and named them after the planets. One school said that the distance from the Sun determined the size of the projector and thus Saturn was the largest projector they made. Another school said that the actual size of the planet determined the size and thus Jupiter was the largest size projector. Now one might say the the rings of Saturn are larger the the diameter of Jupiter but I just can't go there. It's confusing enough as it is.

In my research into the Spitz model "B" for other posts I came across a substantial amount of info about GOTO projectors in a book called "Geared To The Stars". This out of print book is hard to find and unbelievably expensive when available. It can be found in some Libraries however and thus available. While one source can never be considered an ultimate authority, if other supportive information can be found, a fairly accurate account can be generated. While I should perhaps quote each and every fact, I am not preparing a dissertation so I will just give the basic info as I found it. I'm sure I've lost most of the readers by now but I'm sure there are a few diehards that will follow my reasoning to the end.

The book GTTS first mentions GOTO as introducing a large planetarium in 1958 with the introduction of a large planetarium that was a fair copy of the Zeiss II and indeed an ad from that time period reveals:

 ad_for_zeiss_type.JPG ( 56.44k ) Number of downloads: 3

[Ron Walker]

This machine generated the movements of Jupiter and Saturn in electronics under the projector and through selsyn motors imparted the motion to the projectors.

In 1959 the company introduced the M-1, a half scale model of the L-1. You can probably see a pattern developing here and the original series of projectors developed. The S-1 (for small domes), the M-1 (for medium domes), and the L-1 (for large domes). There was also a J-1 (for junior) and it was to compete with the Spitz Jr. The M-1 was the first projector to follow the Morrison design with the star globes on the inside next to the central core and the planet projectors at the far ends. Soon GOTO changed over to naming their projectors after the planets and the following projectors evolved.

The S-3 became the Venus. The M-1 became the Mars. The M-2 became the Jupiter. The L-1 became the Saturn. What one finds is that the Saturn did not continue as a Zeiss II copy but followed the Morrison design. A L-1 was put in the planetarium in St. Louis and one can see the Morrison influence.

 st_louis_L_1.JPG ( 55k ) Number of downloads: 4

[Ron Walker]

So now we know that the original L-1 which looked like the Zeiss now looked like all of the other GOTO machines.

Another ad by GOTO shows the listing of projectors by name. Note that the largest dome (which one would assume required the largest projector) indicates the use of the Saturn. The picture on the lower right shows a Morrison type machine (the L-1) listed as a Saturn.

 ad_for_saturn_type.JPG ( 55.57k ) Number of downloads: 4


The book "GTTS" also mentions a modified Saturn installed in the Vanderbilt planetarium. An article about this projector talks about the drives for the planets driven with Selsyn motors.

From the above I believe that GOTO called there planetariums in order of distance with Saturn being the largest machine.

[Ron Walker]

Now if I can only find out about the Minolta projectors. They started making projectors later then most and in the early 60's had four different series. The MS, S, M, III. Now, what do they stand for?

[Owen Phairis]

As most of you know, it is almost impossible to get the real scoop on exactly what the letters and numbers mean when it comes to planetarium projectors. They appear to change every time a new distributor comes along with a new set of numbers and letters for the exact same projector. After a while one just gives up and just enjoys the projectors.

The nice thing about Spitz is that they have been their own distributor and there is a fair amount of information out there. It is still a bit a problem when you have the A-3 and A-3-P come out about the same time as the arc lamp and the "prime-sky" and one really doesn't understand what the "P" means. That has been put to bed (as far as I can tell) as follows.

A-3 A round star ball with an incandescent lens but with no movement to the planets. They must be set by hand as in the A-2.

A-3-P An A-3 projector with motor driven planet projectors. The "P" stands for planets.

A-3-P prime sky An A-3-P projector with an arc lamp.

I have been guilty of perpetuating inaccurate information as my understanding of the above was originally inaccurate. Thus when questions of the names of GOTO projectors came up, and not having any real concrete information, pretty much went with the flow. Most of the information is straightforward but there has always been a question as to what the largest projectors are called. GOTO had a lot of projectors for a while and named them after the planets. One school said that the distance from the Sun determined the size of the projector and thus Saturn was the largest projector they made. Another school said that the actual size of the planet determined the size and thus Jupiter was the largest size projector. Now one might say the the rings of Saturn are larger the the diameter of Jupiter but I just can't go there. It's confusing enough as it is.

In my research into the Spitz model "B" for other posts I came across a substantial amount of info about GOTO projectors in a book called "Geared To The Stars". This out of print book is hard to find and unbelievably expensive when available. It can be found in some Libraries however and thus available. While one source can never be considered an ultimate authority, if other supportive information can be found, a fairly accurate account can be generated. While I should perhaps quote each and every fact, I am not preparing a dissertation so I will just give the basic info as I found it. I'm sure I've lost most of the readers by now but I'm sure there are a few diehards that will follow my reasoning to the end.

The book GTTS first mentions GOTO as introducing a large planetarium in 1958 with the introduction of a large planetarium that was a fair copy of the Zeiss II and indeed an ad from that time period reveals:

 ad_for_zeiss_type.JPG ( 56.44k ) Number of downloads: 3

Fascinating, Thanks Ron.

What I do not understand is that a former worker at the Vanderbuilt told me that the Vanderbuilt projector is a "Jupiter class" projector and that there was only one other ever built and that it is located in Japan. Now, is it really a 'Saturn class', and how does it compare with the L1? Were there ever any other L1s built?

Lots of questions from a guy who has a sincere interest in the Goto line of projectors....

Thanks, Owen

[Ron Walker]

Fascinating, Thanks Ron.

What I do not understand is that a former worker at the Vanderbuilt told me that the Vanderbuilt projector is a "Jupiter class" projector and that there was only one other ever built and that it is located in Japan. Now, is it really a 'Saturn class', and how does it compare with the L1? Were there ever any other L1s built?

Lots of questions from a guy who has a sincere interest in the Goto line of projectors....

Thanks, Owen

I don't think that any of the original Zeiss design L-1's were ever built. There were probably some patent issues involved. The only L-1's ever built (as far as I know) were the Vanderbilt and the St. Louis machine. There may have been more that were installed in Japan but I doubt any survived. I base this pure conjecture on the fact that the current president of GOTO came over to the Vanderbilt just recently and bowed to the projector in reverence to his grandfather.

The Jupiter class was originally an M-2. The S-1 was designed as competition for the Spitz A-1. The S-2 you know well. As far as I can tell the lineage is as follows.

J-1 ~ Competition for the Spitz Jr. (I have never seen a picture)

S-1 ~ Competition for the Spitz A-1 (I have never seen a picture) (Possibly became a "Mercury" but I'm not all sure.)
S-2 ~ As you know, complete optical projection of the celestial sphere.
S-3 ~ Small projector with motor driven planets. Became "Venus"

M-1 ~ Medium projector and I believe the most manufactured. Became "Mars"
M-2 ~ Medium projector for larger dome then above. Became "Jupiter"

L-1 ~ Large projector. Became "Saturn"

All of the projectors are based on the Morrison design.

The book GTTS specifically mentions the Vanderbilt as a custom modified Saturn projector.

A little later the "E" series was introduced with the number following the "E" to indicate the design dome size in meters. Today we have the E-3 for a 10 foot dome and the E-5 for a 16 foot dome.

The S-3 or "Venus" evolved into two projectors. The GE II and the GS-AT. It appears to follow the design of the original "Venus" and remains a mechanically driven projector.

The M-1 or "Mars" has been replaced by a totally new design called the GSS-Chronos.

The M-2 or "Jupiter" has been replaced by a totally new design called the Super Uranus.

The L-1 or "Saturn" has been replaced by a totally new design called the Super Helios.

[Owen Phairis]

I don't think that any of the original Zeiss design L-1's were ever built. There were probably some patent issues involved. The only L-1's ever built (as far as I know) were the Vanderbilt and the St. Louis machine. There may have been more that were installed in Japan but I doubt any survived. I base this pure conjecture on the fact that the current president of GOTO came over to the Vanderbilt just recently and bowed to the projector in reverence to his grandfather.

The Jupiter class was originally an M-2. The S-1 was designed as competition for the Spitz A-1. The S-2 you know well. As far as I can tell the lineage is as follows.

J-1 ~ Competition for the Spitz Jr. (I have never seen a picture)

S-1 ~ Competition for the Spitz A-1 (I have never seen a picture) (Possibly became a "Mercury" but I'm not all sure.)
S-2 ~ As you know, complete optical projection of the celestial sphere.
S-3 ~ Small projector with motor driven planets. Became "Venus"

M-1 ~ Medium projector and I believe the most manufactured. Became "Mars"
M-2 ~ Medium projector for larger dome then above. Became "Jupiter"

L-1 ~ Large projector. Became "Saturn"

All of the projectors are based on the Morrison design.

The book GTTS specifically mentions the Vanderbilt as a custom modified Saturn projector.

A little later the "E" series was introduced with the number following the "E" to indicate the design dome size in meters. Today we have the E-3 for a 10 foot dome and the E-5 for a 16 foot dome.

The S-3 or "Venus" evolved into two projectors. The GE II and the GS-AT. It appears to follow the design of the original "Venus" and remains a mechanically driven projector.

The M-1 or "Mars" has been replaced by a totally new design called the GSS-Chronos.

The M-2 or "Jupiter" has been replaced by a totally new design called the Super Uranus.

The L-1 or "Saturn" has been replaced by a totally new design called the Super Helios.

Thanks Ron, I am going to print this whole thread out when I get home.

I did some checking on the L-1 and this is what I found:

1. Number of stars 9,000 pcs.
2. Dome size needed 20m (65.6 feet)
3. Accomodation 400-450 persons
4. Weight (gross) 3,650 kgs
5. Cft. 1700
6. Delivery 12 months after receipt of order

Price: US $159,850.00 CIF Buyers Nearest Port includes 2 weeks of installation and training on Goto account.

This is all from original Goto documents from 1963.

I have the complete Goto L-1 Specifications here at the Museum. Remind me when you come and I will dig it out.

Thanks, Owen

PS: Steve Pielock has an S-1 and he told me it does not have variable star intensity, I found out it was also for a smaller dome as well, perhaps 5 meter versus the S-2 which was designed for a 24 foot dome. Apparently the Venus was for a 24 - 33 foot dome. The Mercury I believe is for a 17 - 25 foot dome.

[Charlie Miller]

This machine generated the movements of Jupiter and Saturn in electronics under the projector and through selsyn motors imparted the motion to the projectors.

In 1959 the company introduced the M-1, a half scale model of the L-1. You can probably see a pattern developing here and the original series of projectors developed. The S-1 (for small domes), the M-1 (for medium domes), and the L-1 (for large domes). There was also a J-1 (for junior) and it was to compete with the Spitz Jr. The M-1 was the first projector to follow the Morrison design with the star globes on the inside next to the central core and the planet projectors at the far ends. Soon GOTO changed over to naming their projectors after the planets and the following projectors evolved.

The S-3 became the Venus. The M-1 became the Mars. The M-2 became the Jupiter. The L-1 became the Saturn. What one finds is that the Saturn did not continue as a Zeiss II copy but followed the Morrison design. A L-1 was put in the planetarium in St. Louis and one can see the Morrison influence.

Ron, I fondly recall this projector, as our family often went to st. louis for baseball games (way before inane ticket
prices), going up the arch, or me pushing for yet another planetarium visit. I recall this photo from a S&T article. Those were the days.

Here is a link to a Goto sales brochure. It mentions the projector at the vanderbilt planetarium, which it is stated that 12,000 (!!!!!!!!!) stars were projected. I sure hope that projector hasn't been treated poorly. 12,000!!! The brochure
also indicates a 180dec film projector.

LINK TO GOTO BROCHURE:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classic...oto_Catalog.pdf

[Ron Walker]

Ron, I fondly recall this projector, as our family often went to st. louis for baseball games (way before inane ticket
prices), going up the arch, or me pushing for yet another planetarium visit. I recall this photo from a S&T article. Those were the days.

Here is a link to a Goto sales brochure. It mentions the projector at the vanderbilt planetarium, which it is stated that 12,000 (!!!!!!!!!) stars were projected. I sure hope that projector hasn't been treated poorly. 12,000!!! The brochure
also indicates a 180dec film projector.

LINK TO GOTO BROCHURE:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classic...oto_Catalog.pdf

A great booklet Charlie, great find. I wish I could find something like this on the Minolta machines.

[Owen Phairis]

Thanks Charlie,

I had no idea the EX-3 dated back as far as 1974. Somehow I doubt that "50,000" Japanese schools have that projector? Perhaps something got lost in the translation?

I am printing a copy for my archives, thanks again.

Owen -

 plnt4.jpg ( 18.36k ) Number of downloads: 0

[Charlie Miller]

A great booklet Charlie, great find. I wish I could find something like this on the Minolta machines.

Dammit! I just read on a blog that Vanderbilt sought to deep-six their Goto... two years ago. I just don't
get it. If an organization wants to "go digital', why not do so while preserving the advantages (better
resolution, interesting device) of the mechano-optical machines while also installing digital projectors?

Several large institutions use this hybrid approach. just because something is middle-aged doesn't mean]\
it should be scrapped. If all these wonderful projectors are tossed out for the supposedly latest-and-greatest,
it is a significant loss. sigh.

[Charlie Miller]

Thanks Charlie,

I had no idea the EX-3 dated back as far as 1974. Somehow I doubt that "50,000" Japanese schools have that projector? Perhaps something got lost in the translation?

I am printing a copy for my archives, thanks again.

Owen -

 plnt4.jpg ( 18.36k ) Number of downloads: 0

Well, I do wonder about that 50k number. Japan DID have a strong push toward technological superiority
and with their schools run more by the state, perhaps they went on a binge? Recal that occording to
sales literature, the Spitz Jr. sold 1 million. Now don't these two look SO engaged? Alas, the effect
on my 7-yr-old just isn't quite the same. (Although they ARE trying to operate the thing with lights on...
...guess it was just so cool, didn't matter)

 temp.jpg ( 70.73k ) Number of downloads: 1

[Owen Phairis]

Well, I do wonder about that 50k number. Japan DID have a strong push toward technological superiority
and with their schools run more by the state, perhaps they went on a binge? Recal that occording to
sales literature, the Spitz Jr. sold 1 million. Now don't these two look SO engaged? Alas, the effect
on my 7-yr-old just isn't quite the same. (Although they ARE trying to operate the thing with lights on...
...guess it was just so cool, didn't matter)

 temp.jpg ( 70.73k ) Number of downloads: 1

Some interesting stats on Japan as of 2008.
I came up with 39,000 schools in the entire country, still more than I would have thought...
We can assume that colleges had better planetariums than the EX-3.

Population: 127,000,000

!!Number of Schools

!!Elementary : 22,700 (Grade 1-6)

!!Junior High : 11,000 (Grade 7-9)

!!High : 5,300 (Grade 10-12)

!!Number of Students

!!Elementary : 7,130,000

!!Junior High : 3,610,000

!!High : 3,410,000

[Owen Phairis]

Reading further in the pamphlet, I find it interesting to note that apparently the E-5 planetarium projector as originally introduced had no motorized lattitude adjustment. It was strickly manually set as described and shown in the picture. In fact, it looks like they used the same lever arm that is used in their EX-3 model projector.

Now, I know both my E-5 and Rons' E-5 have a motor for lattitude positioning, and I believe Kens does as well.

Owen -

[pielock373]

In regard to the "p" in the Spitz A3p, it refers to the newly designed planets analog system.

Steve

[pielock373]

Dammit! I just read on a blog that Vanderbilt sought to deep-six their Goto... two years ago. I just don't
get it. If an organization wants to "go digital', why not do so while preserving the advantages (better
resolution, interesting device) of the mechano-optical machines while also installing digital projectors?

Several large institutions use this hybrid approach. just because something is middle-aged doesn't mean]\
it should be scrapped. If all these wonderful projectors are tossed out for the supposedly latest-and-greatest,
it is a significant loss. sigh.

If you saw the vanderbilt machine you would understand why they want to deep-six it! I have worked on it several times for them over the years. It is in very bad shape. From 1970 to about 1990 it didn't get proper service. The first time I got on scene almost nothing worked. We were able to get most of it going but it has been very labor intensive and expensive to keep this thing going. Many of the repairs being band-aid fixes to keep it running. Now with the last few years of hard times no service has been done to it so there it sits! Many of it's parts gone or not functional.

Steve

[mrgare5050]

If you saw the vanderbilt machine you would understand why they want to deep-six it! I have worked on it several times for them over the years. It is in very bad shape. From 1970 to about 1990 it didn't get proper service. The first time I got on scene almost nothing worked. We were able to get most of it going but it has been very labor intensive and expensive to keep this thing going. Many of the repairs being band-aid fixes to keep it running. Now with the last few years of hard times no service has been done to it so there it sits! Many of it's parts gone or not functional.

Steve

Are you talking about Vanderbilt Univ here in Nashville? g

[Charlie Miller]

Are you talking about Vanderbilt Univ here in Nashville? g

Gare, Don't recall it's location, just its write-up in S&T. It had a goto projector
that produced ~11000 stars.

I hate to hear of all that technology dying because the main operator, who likely
had some knowledge of engineering & circuits, retires. This is what leads to
the "let's completely automate everything (digistar) and have an attendant turn
it on. There is a self-selection process at work and the science centers who
go that route have less interesting star shows. Heck, star shows per se have
gotten shorter while the "doggie trip to the moon" who crowds out the more
expert-driven shows.

[Charlie Miller]

So now we know that the original L-1 which looked like the Zeiss now looked like all of the other GOTO machines.

Another ad by GOTO shows the listing of projectors by name. Note that the largest dome (which one would assume required the largest projector) indicates the use of the Saturn. The picture on the lower right shows a Morrison type machine (the L-1) listed as a Saturn.

 ad_for_saturn_type.JPG ( 55.57k ) Number of downloads: 4


The book "GTTS" also mentions a modified Saturn installed in the Vanderbilt planetarium. An article about this projector talks about the drives for the planets driven with Selsyn motors.

From the above I believe that GOTO called there planetariums in order of distance with Saturn being the largest machine.

This is curious. The old McDonnell planetarium (St. Louis) had something very close to the Saturn or L1, but not exactly the same. The SLouis projector had cowlings aroudn the planet cages (you couldn't see through each planet segment. Meanwhile, the vanderbilt planetarium had a "new generation" large Goto (which had big advertising letters - logo - on it and a novel set of analog computers in the base. I think those computers would allow the operator to reset the observing time without having to make the mechanics whip around repeatedly.

[Owen Phairis]

Are you talking about Vanderbilt Univ here in Nashville? g

Steve was talking about the Vanderbilt located on Long Island New York.

"O"

Goto L-1 Projector -
 Vanderbuilt3E.jpg ( 95.88k ) Number of downloads: 0